Atomic City Talk

I hope you don't mind my 2 cents...

I don't think you will have as much success targeting those who work here and live in K'ville. I think you need to target the new-comers to jobs here. If we can get 90% of the folks taking jobs here to live here (rather than 10%), we would not have the problem we have now. Assuming that the average tenure at a position at the labs/plants is 10-15 years, that would be soon enough because we still have work to do to get them to want to live here. The chamber is starting a program that looks like a good beginning by targeting HR departments (assuming upper management buy-in).

The folks who live here and work in K'ville already see the light. If we can solve the "work here, live elsewhere" problem, I think the "work elsewhere, live here" folks will see even more incentive to live here too. And according to the other threads that think that we want to get rid of old folks, if we can grow the population correctly, we can reach the right ratios and keep our seniors too.

Well, then I guess you would be talking about me. We are DOE employees with young children.

My short answer is: rescue the school from the trajectory they are currently on, put in some nice single-family dwellings in affordable neighborhoods, and improve the look of things all over.

We moved here primarily for the schools, but we're second-guessing that decision now. Several months before the Great Bailey-Fellner Fiasco broke, we decided to pull our children from Oak Ridge public schools for reasons that are probably not directly pertinent to this thread.

If you want to attract DOE employees with children, then I should think the schools would be the number one draw. But I should warn you that although the schools still look good on paper, actual experience was a different story. I know our experience is not unique, either.

After the schools, having affordable housing in pleasant neighborhoods would be good. There are some neighborhoods in Oak Ridge that look dreadful -- beer bottles laying all over the yard, trash everywhere, broken windows and doors, and dead vehicles everywhere. Unfortunately, these are also in areas where young families would consider living because they are generally less expensive and have yards and sidewalks where children can play.

Single-family dwellings with their own yards would be nice. They don't have to be big yards either, just give a sense of personal space. Those three story apartment buildings? No, I think those are unwise. Families with children don't want to be that close to others, nor do they want to haul the stroller up the stairs, and young single people want to live somewhere that affords them a more active social life than does Oak Ridge. I can't imagine that seniors want to hike those stairs either.

Families would also like affordable, clean, and safe places to shop. I think Oak Ridge does a fair job with that, but there are some sections that look rather seedy. A face-lift on the Big Lot's shopping area and the Books-A-Million area would aid in public perception. The dead mall is abandoned and creepy. Also, the empty lots along the Turnpike on the east end of town make us look decayed and run-down. Maybe we are, I'm not clear on that point, but if we want to attract families (or anybody else for that matter), we need to look like we've got our economic act together.

Don't put anything on top of Pine Ridge. It's ugly enough just sitting there, but it will be a monumental eyesore if you stick something on top of it. Not only that, it looks like traffic in and out would present an additional headache. Let it grow back and quietly pretend nothing ever happened there. We've got other property that can be developed.

I hope this helps.

Glass Owl I appreciate your honest comments about your view of the city. You and your family sound like exactly the demographic that the city leadership should be courting.

However I disagree with your opinion of Pine Ridge. You might think I'm nuts, but I think that Pine Ridge would be an outstanding place for a new shopping center, if the traffic is engineered properly.

I second Daco's comments; your critique is very constructive.

When you cite the need for "affordable housing in pleasant neighborhoods," what is the price range that meets that description in your estimation? And, do you mean new construction, or just well-kept?

The usual definition of "affordable housing" is 2.5 times one's annual household income, so if the average annual household income for the population sought is, say $100,000, an affordable home would be $250,000.

What would be a good ratio of rental housing vs. owner-occupied? Some rentals are desirable (people often rent while they look for a home), but I have a feeling that this may have gotten out of balance along with our demographics, especially in the older neighborhoods. However, many of those older neighborhoods are or could be extremely desirable, with lots of mature trees, backing up to the greenbelts, etc.

One thing that has taken away from our neighborhood appeal is the centralization of ALL shopping; there used to be small centers with a grocery store, a drug store, and a barber scattered in neighborhoods throughout the city. Other than the little center at Briarcliff, those are largely all gone.

I really don't think that it's the housing that's keeping people from seeing OR as "desirable".

If our town wasn't such a hot news item when it comes to our crime rate (drugs, shootings, thefts, etc) and the lack of officers at hand, we would be more desirable. It's pretty pathetic when we are in the news because a student of our school system has won top honors at a nationwide event and then later that night they are reporting drive by shootings in our community. I'm tired of hearing "it's gonna get worse before it gets any better". Seems to be a cycle that I'm not willing to ride out anymore.

OR needs to become attractive in many areas. The old vacant buildings either need to be fixed up or torn down. The eye sore neighborhoods need to be dressed up by the residents and owners that live within. People need to take pride or get out and go somewhere else. This town needs a face lift in general. Building a new senior center isn't going to be the tax revenue gang buster that this city needs.

Let's flatten the mall and build a water park.

A couple of points

Willow Place is a great example of the kind of residential project that attracts previously non-Oak Ridgers to Oak Ridge. The majority of those families who have purchased homes there were not living in Oak Ridge before their purchase. The majority of those purchasing homes in Willow Place are seniors. Most are active seniors with descretionary income. They spend money (and therefore create tax revenue) in Oak Ridge without overburdening municipal services.

I've never been sure about the definition of "affordable housing". I suspect that to some degreee that's in the eye of the beholder. Regardless of the definition, I'm told that Oak Ridge is a more expensive place in which to develop than our competing communities. The construction standards for the City of Oak Ridge are more stingent and in some cases unique requiring as much as 20% more cost to provide roads, water, sewer, electricity, etc. than Knox, Loudon or Roane Counties. Recent large land sales have been in the range of $15-55,000 per acre making it tough for a developed lot to cost much less that $50,000. Using a rule of thumb that the lot cost is 20% of the total cost then either side of $200,000 is about as "affordable" as we are going to get for new construction.

Redevelopement of older neighborhoods, whether a house at a time or a block at a time, is likely the only way to have "new" housing stock available in the range of $100-200,000.

I'm not yet a resident, but I am a homeowner in Oak Ridge. Last year, my wife and I were taking a trip to the Smokies and stayed in downtown Knoxville. On our way out of town, we stopped in a real estate office in West Knoxville and inquired into the real estate in the area. I had heard of Tellico and asked him about that area, but he said there were some pollution problems and kind of steered use away from there.

He said there's a nice community just north of the office, Oak Ridge, that we should check out. He gave us the listing sheets of three properties and sent us on our way. The first two were not what we were interested in, but after our drive along Melton Lake, seeing the walking path, the rowing center, and the beauty of the area, we went to the third house in The Rivers. After seeing the house, walking the neighborhood and the path, we said this is perfect. This is where we want to spend the next phase of our lives. We put a bid on the house and closed within three weeks. We have a tenant in the house who works for one of the churches in Oak Ridge.

It may not have been the most well thought out purchase we've ever made, financially or logically, but it was like when you see that pretty girl across the room and declare love at first sight. This feeling hit both of us at the same time.

My wife and I are both fiscally restrained by nature: she's a trust officer and I'm in investment management, but sometimes the rules have to get bent. I've lived in Indianapolis my entire life, and I was ready for a new lease on life. Our plan is to move in four years, we'll be 55 by then, take a year or so off, and I'll start searching for my next career.

I've learned so much about the city by reading the threads on this website, along with reading the paper online everyday. The problems you have are no different than any other city. The buddy system is rampant everywhere. The crime rate is a little disturbing.

We're not the most ideal demographic you're looking for, but I'm going to get involved in the community as much as possible. I know there's a lout of grousing about how much money was put into the rowing center, but that was a very positive factor in my impression of the town.

Look out 2011, two more northerners are coming!!

About the affordable housing...

Oak Ridge is a small town, it needs to sell this as an asset. We can't compete with Knoxville in terms of cultural attractions, malls, night life and all the other big city amenities. I may be wrong about this, but there is the common perception that West Knoxville/Farragut is more prestigious and classier. It is also cheaper. If that is the case, then those who would like to live in the more up-scale developments full of McMansions are not going to come to Oak Ridge. Why go somewhere more expensive for less perceived status?

But Oak Ridge can appeal to those who would like more convenience, smaller houses than the McMansions, more yard, a sidewalk, the greenbelt, and less crime. Although our crime rate is more than we'd like it to be, it is less than Knoxville's.

When I said "affordable housing" I was thinking of young married people who are just starting out. For many craft laborers and even young white collar workers, the McMansions are out of reach unless both spouses work like dogs and put no money in savings. This, in turn, directly effects their willingness to have children, and people who don't have children are less invested in the future of the community.

This is my third stint here in Oak Ridge, I was here during Mall Wars Episode I. I thought then, as I think now, that sometimes Oak Ridge's eyes are too big for its stomach. I recall being told back then that the mall would succeed because the average income was $50,000. I suspected that this number had not been calculated correctly, but even if it was, that sort of thing doesn't translate into "and therefore can support something like West Town Mall."

Today, I would gear affordable housing more toward people with incomes of $60,000, not $100,000. People who are young and looking to establish a community. I would not try to compete with Knoxville in the McMansion department. I gather cheap housing cannot be built new, but we have the old ABCD houses with their yards and sidewalks. We need heavily market our existing assets.

The row houses town houses that are springing up all over West Knoxville are being bought by new families, single people, working class people, and lower-middle income people. I think an ABCD house with its bigger yard and its sidewalk is more appealing than one of those town houses. Can we lure that market here? Is there a reason we should not?

These are just my thoughts on the housing matter.

Welcome to Oak Ridge! While you might not be the demographic that we need more of, we can always use interested and interesting people.

I may not have the wisdom of Emile Autori, but here goes:

CN,
Why would say that Outsider is not the "targeted" Oak Riger? I think this is a great place to start a second career and enjoy a time of your life away from the hassles of a larger city and colder climates. With or without a senior center.

Glass Owl,
Wish you would expand on your situation with the schools. I have had different experiences with schools here, depending on my different children and their wants/needs and willingness to buckle down and work. I realize that we are under the gun with the pending court situation, but as far as public schools go, this place is way above the curve. I know of far worse infractions in private school scenarios with way less opportunity for the students.

Our crime situation is worse than it has been, but i'm still not afraid to go out at night just about anywhere I would consider going in Oak Ridge. Don't give me the crime doesn't have a zip code song and dance. I realize that. But I also realize that if I don't go into the few areas where the majority of crime is, I am less likely to be a victim.

I like Oak Ridge and feel like the majority of posts on these boards spend a lot more tiime on the bad stuff than the good stuff. Would you really want to relocate to a place that people sit around and gripe and whine about how terrible the administration is and what a crime ridden Gotham City we live in?

Me and H.R. Puffnstuff are getting along fine in the ridge......