Atomic City Talk - Pro-Life and Pro-Choice Booths at Secret Ciy

Just Me:

If what you say is how you believe then you are anti-abortion and not pro-life. Call yourself whatever you choose but the facts are the facts. Check out the stances on pro-life.

Knowwhy:

I don't know where you lived in the 50's and 60's but where I lived I saw it the same way as Ernestine described. The youth of the time , or as you called them hippies, changed the world. They stood up and fought for what they believed in and drew attention to the many injustices of the times. Of course, you stereotype people and describe all of them as druggies etc. The Kent State killings were devastating to this country. The college students got out and got the blacks signed up to vote.There were movements to make women equal etc. etc. People were voicing there dissatisfaction in government as we knew it. If the system worked so well and changes could have been made within the system why did it take so many years to come to a head and why did it take so long to end an unpopular and unnecessary war? Many great leaders lost their lives to these causes during that period. To name a few we had JRK, RFK and Martin Luther King. Oh and then there were the college students who came to Mississippi to sign up voters and were found dead and the students at Kent State who were shot by the National Guard. The system prospered from the war. If I remember correctly the company of choice at that time was Pacific something Engineering which was owned by Lady Bird Johnson and did all the reconstruction of the devastation we caused in Vietnam. Can you say conflict of interest? Gee, I wonder who got rich on that one. Unfortunately, that company could not reconstruct the bodies of the many men who lost lives and limbs to a cause that was unnecessary. I don't know if the company of choice today is Bechtal or Halliburton but they both have their hands out. I would like to know who all has stock in them and who is all on their BOD from Washington DC. Let's see how working within the system stops the chaos in the US today. Up to this point it hasn't worked.

"The "greatest generation" was so much better than the hippies that there is no comparison."

So what you are saying is the "greatest generation" was a group of poor parents. Everything else was good. Sad then, because the better parent you are, the better society will be in the future.

I often wonder where these pro-lifers get some of their ideas.

Why is a cell immediately after conception a human life worth preserving at any price, including murder? Yet immediately before that we had two human cells of no particular import.

We can (or very nearly can) produce a viable embryo from any human cell. What does (will) that mean?

Why do pro-lifers suddenly understand when they are confronted with a high cost pregnancy personally? Can't they use their imaginations to anticipate the possibility of that kind of situation? Or is the world too black and white, and they are white?

Most of their framework on this question seems to come from a religious tradition. Yet in this country, we try not to codify religious belief. Why do they feel that their religious belief is better in the eyes of the law than mine? Isn't that the very definition of "elitist"?

Why do they like to show plastic models of a fetus that is much larger than actual size when they know that most abortion occurs when the cell mass is about the size of a B-B? Doesn't it occur to them that this is a tad dishonest? Does honesty not matter to them?

What does being human mean to a pro-lifer? Are criminals human? Are citizens of Oregon with terminal illnesses who want to die on their own terms rather than the disease's cruel destiny not also human? Is a single cell human? Are the sperm and egg human? Is being human that special over being something else?

While this does not come close to my total bewilderment of this subject, can any pro-lifer discuss these questions?

JustMe:

I do not care if you partially agree with me, do not agree with me at all, think everything I said was right. It is my opinion and my view of the situation. Think how you think, view how you view.

Are you comparing our society to Nazi's?

Cracker:

You ask some mind boggling questions that I really don't think there is any direct answer but they make you think. I noticed you got no answers to your questions. I really don't know where I stand on mercy killing. I have very mixed feelings on the subject because of the involvement of humans in the process. I do think we have a right to our own destination (due to terminal illness) but who makes the final decision if it is time is where I have the question. I believe in DNR. Modern medicine has done wonders but sometimes has gone too far keeping alive someone who has no quality of life left. Now who determones what quality of life is? I ask these questions all the time too and have not come up with a solid answer yet. Maybe because none of this is black and white, it is all so gray and in the eyes of the person dealing with the problem at the time. I guess that is why we were given free will to make the decision at the time necessary and hope the decision was the right one when we answer to our God whomever he/she may be.

Justme:

You asked a question of me regarding equality for all and did I not believe in equality for all. My opinion and belief is I am no less than or more than my fellow man. Maybe that answers your question.

JustMe Wrote:

CrackerNation Wrote:

I often wonder where these pro-lifers get some of their ideas.

Why is a cell immediately after conception a human life worth preserving at any price, including murder? Yet immediately before that we had two human cells of no particular import.

We can (or very nearly can) produce a viable embryo from any human cell. What does (will) that mean?

Why do pro-lifers suddenly understand when they are confronted with a high cost pregnancy personally? Can't they use their imaginations to anticipate the possibility of that kind of situation? Or is the world too black and white, and they are white?

Most of their framework on this question seems to come from a religious tradition. Yet in this country, we try not to codify religious belief. Why do they feel that their religious belief is better in the eyes of the law than mine? Isn't that the very definition of "elitist"?

Why do they like to show plastic models of a fetus that is much larger than actual size when they know that most abortion occurs when the cell mass is about the size of a B-B? Doesn't it occur to them that this is a tad dishonest? Does honesty not matter to them?

What does being human mean to a pro-lifer? Are criminals human? Are citizens of Oregon with terminal illnesses who want to die on their own terms rather than the disease's cruel destiny not also human? Is a single cell human? Are the sperm and egg human? Is being human that special over being something else?

While this does not come close to my total bewilderment of this subject, can any pro-lifer discuss these questions?

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee..." Jeremiah 1:5.

My reading of this verse indicates that you were known before you were formed. If you are using this to justify the sanctity of the conceived cell, doesn't it imply that you were known before that and that sperm and eggs are sacred too?

JustMe Wrote:

CrackerNation Wrote:

I often wonder where these pro-lifers get some of their ideas.

Why is a cell immediately after conception a human life worth preserving at any price, including murder? Yet immediately before that we had two human cells of no particular import.

We can (or very nearly can) produce a viable embryo from any human cell. What does (will) that mean?

Why do pro-lifers suddenly understand when they are confronted with a high cost pregnancy personally? Can't they use their imaginations to anticipate the possibility of that kind of situation? Or is the world too black and white, and they are white?

Most of their framework on this question seems to come from a religious tradition. Yet in this country, we try not to codify religious belief. Why do they feel that their religious belief is better in the eyes of the law than mine? Isn't that the very definition of "elitist"?

Why do they like to show plastic models of a fetus that is much larger than actual size when they know that most abortion occurs when the cell mass is about the size of a B-B? Doesn't it occur to them that this is a tad dishonest? Does honesty not matter to them?

What does being human mean to a pro-lifer? Are criminals human? Are citizens of Oregon with terminal illnesses who want to die on their own terms rather than the disease's cruel destiny not also human? Is a single cell human? Are the sperm and egg human? Is being human that special over being something else?

While this does not come close to my total bewilderment of this subject, can any pro-lifer discuss these questions?

"Am I required in a democracy to conform my efforts in the political arena to his bloody notion of what is right, a choice, with regard to the lives of tiny babies?"

Why is this cell so special? What makes it a baby? What if this cell does not implant? When we can clone any cell, aren't they all babies by your conjecture? Will any human cell death warrant a funeral?

JustMe Wrote:

B. Obama, January 22, 2008 from http://www.barackobama.com.

"Throughout my career, I've been a consistent and strong supporter of reproductive justice, and have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America.

"When South Dakota passed a law banning all abortions in a direct effort to have Roe overruled, I was the only candidate for President to raise money to help the citizens of South Dakota repeal that law. When anti-choice protesters blocked the opening of an Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic in a community where affordable health care is in short supply, I was the only candidate for President who spoke out against it. And I will continue to defend this right by passing the Freedom of Choice Act as president.

...

"But we also know that Roe v. Wade is about more than a woman's right to choose; it's about equality. It's about whether our daughters are going to have the same opportunities as our sons. And so to truly honor that decision, we need to update the social contract so that women can free themselves, and their children, from violent relationships; so that a mom can stay home with a sick child without getting a pink slip; so that she can go to work knowing that there's affordable, quality childcare for her children; and so that the American dream is within reach for every family in this country. This anniversary reminds us that it's not enough to protect the gains of the past – we have to build a future that's filled with hope and possibility for all Americans."

(well a future for all except those not yet born).

As it is for the 90% or so of all the conceptions that naturally fail to implant or those that abort naturally (miscarriage).

JustMe Wrote:

CrackerNation Wrote:

I often wonder where these pro-lifers get some of their ideas.

Why is a cell immediately after conception a human life worth preserving at any price, including murder? Yet immediately before that we had two human cells of no particular import.

We can (or very nearly can) produce a viable embryo from any human cell. What does (will) that mean?

Why do pro-lifers suddenly understand when they are confronted with a high cost pregnancy personally? Can't they use their imaginations to anticipate the possibility of that kind of situation? Or is the world too black and white, and they are white?

Most of their framework on this question seems to come from a religious tradition. Yet in this country, we try not to codify religious belief. Why do they feel that their religious belief is better in the eyes of the law than mine? Isn't that the very definition of "elitist"?

Why do they like to show plastic models of a fetus that is much larger than actual size when they know that most abortion occurs when the cell mass is about the size of a B-B? Doesn't it occur to them that this is a tad dishonest? Does honesty not matter to them?

What does being human mean to a pro-lifer? Are criminals human? Are citizens of Oregon with terminal illnesses who want to die on their own terms rather than the disease's cruel destiny not also human? Is a single cell human? Are the sperm and egg human? Is being human that special over being something else?

While this does not come close to my total bewilderment of this subject, can any pro-lifer discuss these questions?

Nation: You might want to read this book. Seems to avoid a "religious" argument; just details from a Ob-Gyn who performed many abortions.

Would you agree with this review?

poisonivy Wrote:

I noticed you got no answers to your questions.

I'm not sure I expected to. I do hope that they might serve as the basis of a discussion though. Your response was a nice start.